THE PERSON OF THE SON
Romans 9: 1-5
John 1: 1-5; 10: 29-30
AAC I suggest that we might speak together about the truth that Christ is, and always will be, God. That is the truth, and these scriptures bear that out. We can enjoy the Person of Christ in a positive way. There is mystery surrounding the way in which God has disclosed Himself to us, and it is not fathomable by the intelligence of man and our logic. We cannot work it out. All of us could study with the greatest minds of the day and be misled. It is not something that is worked through human logic. God sets out for us in these scriptures and others the way in which He has been pleased to reveal Himself, in the Person of Father, Son and Spirit. They are One; and the Lord Jesus, while in the form of a Man, who has come here as we know, and is now at God’s right hand, is God and will ever remain so. The Scriptures bear that out, and there is something very blessed and attractive in it. It is outside what we can work through in our own minds, but as we apprehend it by faith it gives us a certain assurance; and there is a great line that runs out of truths like this one, which we need to lay hold of.
We read the whole of the first passage to get the context, but interestingly, one to whom Christ revealed Himself begins this paragraph with, “I say the truth in Christ”. Paul, writing in accordance with that which had been revealed to him by divine Persons, as inspired by the Holy Spirit, sets out the truth as to the Person of Christ; and he concludes with, “of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen”. It is very clear to me, and something we can lay hold of: the Person of Jesus, who was a Man here, as drawn out in the hymn we had (No 54), is very attractive to us. He is a Man who has come here with the feelings of a man, sin apart. He still retains those feelings; and He remains a Man at God’s right hand. We know Him as a Friend, the One who would be ready to receive our appeals to Him in everything we might face in our lives. He is able to help us in them, as a Shepherd, as One who would care for us; and yet in the greatness of His Person, He is God. There is something very wonderful in that. We cannot fathom it, that God would manifest Himself in such a homely way to us; but He has done it in order to draw near to us, and in order to draw out our affections towards Himself. But He remains God.
This passage in John 1 is crystal clear to us: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God”. These things refer to the Lord Jesus: He is the Word. And it goes on to make it clearer. Some may say it is historical, but it is a present fact; He continues to be. And then we have in John 10, the Lord Jesus speaking of the Father, “My Father who has given them” - that is us - “to me is greater than all, and no one can seize out of the hand of my Father. I and the Father are one”.. I wondered if we could enjoy the greatness of this truth; there is something hugely attractive about it. And it is utterly foundational for our faith that we lay hold of it and do not let it go: “hold fast what thou hast”, we are exhorted, Rev 3: 11.
DAB It is a very rich subject. What struck me as the passage in Romans was read is that all the blessings we receive hang on this truth. Israel thought the Christ was the fulfilment of all their hopes - everything for Israel hung on that Person, which is true; but everything for God hangs upon Him as well. That is only possible because He Himself is divine. God has not entrusted the fulfilment of His purpose to a creature; He has entrusted it to His Son. I am sure we will get some help about the beginning of John’s gospel, but the reason I thought it would be helpful to read in chapter 10 is that those are the words of the Lord Jesus Himself. If they are true, then everything else He says can be relied upon. We cannot pick and choose; He is either telling the truth or He is not.
AAC That is helpful. It was in my mind that these things are utterly foundational to our faith; they have been so to millions of souls down through the ages, and remain so today. If I can put it this way, this is not something held by relatively few brethren; this is held by all those who have faith in Christ, myriads of faithful souls whose names are written in the book of life. Indeed, I wonder if you could say your name is written in the book of life unless you hold this. So it is very foundational, but I also appreciate what you say, that everything there is for God depends on this. It was not that any other person could be chosen to work out what the Lord Jesus worked out. God revealed Himself in the Person of the Son, and He has worked it out. It was not something that could be entrusted to another, or something that any other could have accomplished. These things are so great that God alone could accomplish them. It has been asked, ‘Well, then did God die on the cross?’, And the answer to that is, ‘Of course you cannot say that God died - that would be wrong - yet the One who died was God’, JT vol 84 p95. That is difficult, it is mystery; but we need to be clear to as these things.
DAB I hope we shall say more about the cross, but the work undertaken on the cross was in divine power; it is unachievable by anybody else. I was thinking about one of Job’s friends, who asks, “Canst thou by searching find out God?”, Job 11: 7. What that man is really saying is that, since God is beyond the range of man’s scientific discovery, it is not worth trying to learn anything about God; we might as well put up with not knowing anything. And that was an infidel thing to say, as God Himself says at the end of the book, “ye have not spoken rightly of me”, Job 42: 7. But it is the case that we as creatures may only know about God what He is pleased to reveal. That is simply the difference between a creature and the Creator. It is in the Creator’s gift what He reveals about Himself. We read in the Old Testament about various names that God took, and various things that are associated with them; and the thrust of all those manifestations is that there is one God; because in the Old Testament the systems of idolatry had many. In the New Testament, the revelation of God is in Father, Son and Holy Spirit; and a key truth in the New Testament is that that “God is one”. It is not right to speak about ‘parts’ of the Godhead; the Persons of the Godhead are equally in that position.
AAC So that said it says, “Philip says to him, Lord, shew us the Father and it suffices us”, John 14: 8. The Lord goes on to explain that He had shown them the Father in Himself. And God has revealed Himself in a way that He has chosen, in a Man, in Christ; but we find there a manifestation of God, because He is God. And that is why the manifestation is so pure.
DAB One thing to be borne in mind about every manifestation of God in the Old Testament is that they are all made by God: the manifestation was in the word of God. That is what we also get in John 1; and now the manifestation which we enjoy the light of has been made by God Himself in the Person of His Son. It would not be possible for any preacher or teacher to discover the means to reveal God, and if God is revealed it must be by God Himself. He has chosen to do that in the Person of His Son.
RMF It says that “he is a rewarder of them who seek him out”, Heb 11: 6. Can you help us about how we do that without letting the human mind and imagination getting carried away?
DAB That is the second half of the verse, which begins, “For he that draws near to God must believe that he is”. That does not mean that I believe I can comprehend Him; I have to accept what God has revealed of Himself - we “believe that he is”. And then one thing I believe we can infallibly take from the way in which God has revealed Himself is that He will reward those who take an interest in that revelation. It is not that the seeking procures the revelation, but it is the answer in the spirit of the believer to it.
RMF Yes, that is good; so that it is not for us to question, it is more to understand the heart of God, is it not?
AAC Your enquiry is helpful because, if we do not accept that God is, we might come up with some theory and look in the Scriptures for something that might prove it; and there may be scriptures that might appear to support what man’s mind is thinking. That is just Satan trying to help us along. But if we accept that God is, and then we look at the Scriptures in that light, we find that the whole hangs together. And I think that is something very attractive, which all of us have proved in some way or another: through simple faith in Christ, we find that all of it hangs together. And man with his natural mind may say that this scripture contradicts that one - and even that we should change the wording itself - but it does not. If we hold to the truth of it in the light of the Spirit, we will be able to see that all of it hangs together, which is very attractive.
FSP You probably know some have changed this passage to say ‘the Word was a god’. How dreadful!
AAC Yes, there are others that do that, and feel free to change the Bible; how terrible: this is the word of God! God has seen to it that various souls penned these words under His own inspiration. It does not need to be changed. The language in Mr Darby’s translation may seem a little old-fashioned, but that is fine. In the depth of that language, there is a great attraction, and a great clarity which does not need to be amended or kept up to date. The laws of man need changing the whole time, but the word of God has stood the test of time; and however long we are left here it will not need to be changed.
JSH You mentioned just now about reading the Scriptures in the power of the Spirit; I think that is a very important thing. The Spirit who indwells, delights to show us the things of Christ. He brings us into the realisation of it. Sometimes, we find that for the finite mind these things are beyond us, but the Spirit is there to help to open up these things to us; and to strengthen us in our faith about these things.
AAC I think that is abundantly evident as we look back on the history of those we have known. There have been some tremendous pillars of strength among the saints, who have not had wonderful education, but in simple faith in Christ they have come to understand so much as to these things; it has been revealed to them. It is not a matter of ‘IQ’; that does not feature in these things. In contrast to that, there are plenty of people who have been to university and studied the Scriptures who are not even saved; let alone have the detail of it. So we can have these things in an attractive simplicity in the knowledge that, where a soul desires to understand, in God’s goodness, something of what He has set out in the Person of Christ, He Himself will help him in it.
DHB We may have had those words in Timothy in mind when we spoke of God as One, “For God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all”, 1 Tim 2: 5, 6. That is another reference, is it?
AAC Thank you for that. Again, it is very clear - the Mediator, the One whom God has provided; He is God Himself. How wonderful is God’s grace and His goodness to us. He has not appointed someone else but He has done it Himself. It is one of the most attractive aspects of the gospel, that God has done it all Himself. He does not delegate; He has done it Himself, and drawn us to Himself in that.
DHB I was also looking at 1 Timothy 3: 16; it says, “God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels, has been preached among the nations”. That is another solid reference. It is not for us to question that; it is for us simply to believe.
DAB I was wondering if we might touch upon the teaching about the Mediator. If a brother and I were to fall out, we might ask someone else to come along as a third party; and because we trust him and like him, we might be prepared to listen to his proposed solution to the problem and go along with it. He would mediate the problem; and that is what Job wanted: he says, “There is not an umpire between us, who should lay his hand upon us both”, Job 9: 33. He wanted someone who would give him a hearing when he said that God had not been fair, someone who would understand what he meant, and perhaps persuade God to ‘back off’ a little bit, and come to some happier position on his matters. That was Job’s idea, but the New Testament shows that that idea is not right. Paul says, “But a mediator is not of one, but God is one”, Gal 3: 20. God does not deal with third parties: the Mediator of God and men is the Man Christ Jesus. He can be a Mediator for God because He is God, and He can be a Mediator for me because He is a Man. So as to these great truths, our whole relationship with God hangs on that blessed fact, that He is a Man as to His condition, and God as to His Person. I think what that passage goes on to say is very blessed too: not only does He take that position, but He has done the work too - He has given Himself. I am just thinking again about Job. Job said he wanted an umpire, but Elihu says, ‘No, you do not need an umpire, you need a ransom’ – speaking for God, he says, “I have found a ransom” (Job 33: 24), and that is what the epistle to Timothy says. There is a Mediator, with a ransom; and therefore the work on which we rely is the work of One who represents God to us, and us to God.
AAC Just for clarity there: a mediator in this scene may be one who arbitrates in the sense of diplomacy, which has no place in God’s things whatsoever. The Mediator is not taking one side and then the other and finding a way through; the Mediator here is helping us to know God; and He also serves so that what we may feebly utter He is able to present to God in purity.
DAB People think that being reconciled to God means that He meets us half way; He has no need to meet us half way, even if His holiness allowed it - which it does not. The Lord Jesus, being who He is, sees our condition perfectly, and He sees God’s requirements in relation to that condition perfectly; and He is “a ransom for all”. I think that is a very blessed thing: God has found His own answer.
DHB Would it be right then to say that a mediator according to man’s mind would be to find common ground, but the work that Christ has done - and relying on that - would bring us to God’s standard.
DAB Paul says, “we have been reconciled to God through the death of his Son” (Rom 5: 10); it is a very glorious truth, I think.
I would just like to go back to what was said as to the Holy Spirit as a resource, which is a very wonderful thing; and there is nothing like it as a gift. But there is also the gift of faith - faith allows you to see what the natural mind cannot see, and that is a gift of God. Mr Victor Brown here used to refer to ‘faith and the Spirit’, those two things; and one helps us to avail ourselves of the other.
GHH I was going to refer to the way Peter responded to the Lord’s question about who He was: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”, Matt 16: 16. The Lord said in answer to that that it was the Father who had revealed it to Peter. It is a wonderful thing, is it not, what we get by revelation? That must have been a tremendous event in Peter’s history and life. No doubt the other apostles had the same experience. Paul was able to preach the Lord Jesus as the Son of God immediately after his conversion, Acts 9: 20.
AAC I wonder if, in spite of our frailty, we have some sense of revelation ourselves? We must have, because when we came under the sound of the gospel, we may say we were converted by a preacher, but it was divine Persons reaching out to us that made the difference. It was not just somebody’s word - or this passage or somebody’s writings - it was divine Persons who reached into our souls. Each one of us has been affected by God Himself; and it is a work He loves to do, to touch souls and give them some sense of the redemptive power which we have been speaking of; and the way in which they are brought then to Christ, and through Christ to God in all His own worth. We cannot do it ourselves, but God has done it and He maintains, He goes on, doing it in the Person of Christ today.
DAB That links with what was said earlier about “seeking”. I like that passage in John 6: 44-46: “No one can come to me except the Father who has sent me draw him”. But Jesus also says, “Every one that has heard from the Father himself, and has learned of him, comes to me”. And then he adds, “not that any one has seen the Father, except he who is of God, he has seen the Father”; that is a reference to the Lord Jesus and is another proof of His divinity, that he “has seen the Father”, He has seen God. I think what was said about seeking comes in here, because I do believe that the Father would give every soul here a direct and personal touch. And if you feel you would like that touch to be clearer, ask Him; ask Him to lead you Himself to Christ. And what He will give you is utterly reliable. It is the truth.
RMF I was thinking earlier that there is a scripture in 1 John 5: 11, 12: “And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life: he that has not the Son of God has not life”. This is key, is it not? If we do not understand the greatness of the Son, then we do not have life; that is where our life is. It says elsewhere, “your life is hid with the Christ in God”, Col 3: 3.
AAC The whole divine supply is vital. As soon as we question these things, we turn it off in effect from our side. It is never turned off from God’s side. But that supply comes in abundance to those who have faith in the word, and in Himself.
DAB What is being said raises the question of what we are seeking, because if it is just something academic or theological, then we could get misled almost anywhere. There is only one place to get life: “this life is in his Son”. I do not suppose anyone here can imagine what their faith and Christianity would be if they did not feel it was living; if they did not feel they could live in it. That life is in His Son; “because I live ye also shall live”, John 14: 19. That is the fruit of the Spirit’s presence in a believer.
If I may add a negative word, the opposite is corrupting, and John in his second epistle says if anyone comes on a different line, you do not receive them into the house, v 10. You may say you talked about something incidental, but that influence is corrupting and we need to be near the pure stream. I just say that by way of counsel.
FSP I was only thinking this morning of those words, “Behold the man!”, John 19: 5. Pilate said that, and he might just have been saying, ‘Here he is’, but God could have said it as well, “Behold the man!” - what a man should be, or is, in Christ.
AAC All God’s thoughts are centred there. The hymn-writer says,
These words evoke an answering chord Hymn No 322.
And they do; when you think of those words, “Behold the man!”, there is something that answers in your heart; there is one Man, Christ, who is also God; God revealed in flesh, drawn near to us to draw out our affections and our commitment to Him.
DAB If we can just pick up a point in John 1; we could ask what might have changed. The answer is that “the Word became flesh”. That was a condition: Scripture speaks of it as a “form” into which He came; but that does not affect the truth of His Person at all. He took “a bondman’s form”; it says that He was “found in figure as a man”, Phil 2: 8, 9. Then, in John 17: 5, He says, “and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was”. None of those things affect what He is in His Person but He enters as Man to that world of divine glory and the home of divine affections; and His right to do that is the right of His Person.
AAC That is helpful and I wondered about drawing on Philippians 2 as well: “did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God”, v 6. He was God, and he remains God; and what could have changed? It says, “but emptied himself, taking a bondman's form, taking his place in the likeness of men”; but He remains God, and how can any but God take the place that He has taken now? He is at the right hand of God, set down there as a Man in His presence; it cannot be otherwise.
DHB God took that form in order to come near to us. It was a desire on His part to draw near to man, but God could not come so near to man in any other way because He dwells in light unapproachable.
AAC I wonder if it would be acceptable to put it this way: the heart of God for man was such that He would not do this in any other, but in the Person of the Lord Jesus Himself. Such was God’s desire to draw near to man that He did it Himself. It is very attractive; that is what I was seeking that we would get from this. There is something abundantly attractive about what God does Himself, which our souls should lay hold of, because nothing in this scene can change that.
DHB The hymn says -
God manifest in flesh, O wonder of His universe Hymn 400
DAB As to Philippians 2, there is a note there that what we read there is in contrast to Adam. The proposition that the devil put to man and his wife was, “ye will be as God” (Gen 3: 5), and they thought that that was something they could snatch; they thought that they could take that from God and have the wisdom and intelligence, and knowledge of evil, that God Himself had withheld. But the Lord Jesus does not have to be “as God”; He is God. There is no suggestion of any artifice or anything forced or illegitimate: He is God.
FSP That is what it means, “did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God”?
DAB It was not something to covet for the Lord Jesus because it was true of Him. If I may explain the word ‘rapine’ with a very coarse example, we could imagine someone who would like to be a billionaire; who might be willing to steal money to get to that sort of position. But if you are a billionaire, it is a fact. It is not something to claim or to grasp at, because it is true of you. The word “equality” is very important as well, and the thought comes into John 10, “I and the Father are one”. At the same time, the Lord Jesus has come into manhood; He says “the Son can do nothing of himself save whatever he sees the Father doing”, John 5: 19. Manhood is a position of subjection in relation to God; and so the Lord Jesus also says, “the Father is greater than I”, John 14: 28. That is because He has come into manhood; man’s place is to be subject to God. But in John 10, He states the truth as to His Person, that they are equal: “I and the Father are one”.
RMF According to Ephesians 1: 13, we are spiritual billionaires: “blessed … with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ”. We have everything in Christ; we may not be taking advantage of it but it is there for the taking?.
DAB It is only accessible to us because of the truth of the Person of Christ.
RMF Yes, it is all in Christ: “every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ”. It is nothing to do with what we have done; it is what He has done.
PFE I am thinking of the hymn -
Father, Son, and Spirit - God in revelation Hymn 420.
It has kept coming back to me as this reading has gone on; it is a helpful hymn to speak about when challenged with some of these things. I was also thinking that life is a recurring theme in John 1; and that is something we should grasp, that life is found in Jesus only.
DAB The way that John puts it is very touching. He does not stop at an assertion of the majesty of Godhead, but presents the Lord Jesus as the source of life. And, of course, as far as the universe is concerned, He is the source of inanimate things as well. The universe is made up of things that are living and things that are not; but nothing received being without Him. That is a wonderful thought, and I like the way it is brought in in Hebrews, where Paul goes straight on from that truth to say, “having made by himself the purification of sins”, Heb 1: 3. Every soul here has started with that truth, the purification of sins has been made; and they need to understand that they are putting their faith in God in doing that; and the Person whose work they trust is God. That is why we can rely upon it; there is no point trying to rely on your own perception of it, or how you feel about it: it is immovable and unchangeable because it was One who as to His Person is God who did it.
AAC What we are saying goes back to the very beginning: God “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul”, Gen 2: 7. That was the source of it all, the Scripture is crystal clear about that. And then, as another hymn-writer says -
Life is found alone in Jesus Hymn 266
Surely that is in God; He is the One who began it and He is the One who continues it, and His purpose is that we should be before Him eternally as made suitable to be in His presence. He is the One who has given us life, who sustains it; and that will be our portion eternally.
DAB There is an interesting point to be made in relation to what was said about the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father (Eph 3: 16), and He is also the Spirit of God’s Son (Gal 4: 6), the same Person. That seems to me to confirm their equality: the Spirit has names that are linked to both the Father and the Son.
FSP I have also thought about the reaction we had to the suggestion we look at this matter at the beginning of this reading - it was not in a defensive way, because it does not need defending, but in the joy of it all. The absolute truth of it is the Spirit’s work. It is not just that we have learned this all our lives.
AAC I very much agree with that: the Spirit has given us life in these things. It means so much to us, it is a source to us; we have proved it. It is an on-going source when we get down or wound up, these things remain constant; and they lift us completely out of these circumstances. We have to recognise that, if we are to take account of any of this, we have to be put out of sight. It is only what is of Christ that is suitable for God’s presence. It is helpful to think of it like that.
DAB This question that has arisen as to the Person of Christ is not the only matter of current concern among us; but if we grasp this truth, we are in touch with the Person who can solve the rest and bring His people through. Is that where our faith needs strengthening?
AAC Christ alone can bring us through. We can talk and work, but we need the answer from the Lord Jesus: He will lead us through.
DAB Maybe other troubles can be confounded by the reassertion of this truth.
AAC In one sense, it is so simple; all we have to do is to accept it, and that is good. We have received the truth from the Word - from the Bible - and we hold on to it. That is a perfectly sound position to be in.
RMF We have something for ‘meditation’ and it is good to think on these things. It says, “Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things”, 2 Tim 2: 7. It is one thing to accept a thing, but do you think there is benefit in just reflecting quietly individually on these truths?
AAC I do. There is a huge benefit, as long as we do it under the influence of the Spirit and, as you have drawn out already, accepting that God is. It is not necessarily a natural contemplation. I fall back on my own logic and it pulls me up every time. But if we just submit to the influence of God - as we said, if we ask Him to give us to understand these things, He will.
DAB Our position is so much more advantageous than that for example of David. If we read the Psalms, we can see David contemplating the light he had. But now God “is in the light” (1 John 1: 7); the Lord Jesus is “the light of the world”, John 8: 12. It says, “in him was light”; there was something there to be taken account of; “we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father”, John 1: 14. They contemplated what was actually mystery, and yet it was there to be taken account of.
AAC And we have a resource which was not available to the Old Testament saints, and who is that but God Himself in the Person of His Spirit? Is he dwelling somewhere where I can go and get Him - no, in me, wherever I go He is with me. It is a resource which I suppose none of us uses properly or to the fullest extent - because it is limitless, but it is available to us, God Himself in us.
DAB The Lord says as to the Spirit, “he shall receive of mine” - which includes the truths we have been speaking about - “and shall announce it to you”, John 16: 14. I may think you need to read books, and right books will help, but the Spirit will show you the things that God has revealed.
RMF It says here that “the darkness apprehended it not”. There were times in the pathway of the Lord when the Jews could not understand Him, the Pharisees in particular; but there were those who accepted it in simple faith. Is that the line we have to take?
DAB That is not a natural thing either. If some of the lights in this room were not working, we would not have light and darkness in the room, because the remaining lights would do their best to lighten the whole room. But moral darkness is impenetrable except to divine light, and if that light is refused it goes on as dark as before. And there is darkness to hide in also. But what a wonderful thing it is that God is in the light! And our fellowship is in that lit-up place.
PFE The light appeared to these Pharisees in John 10 and they completely rejected it. The simple terms in which the Lord puts things are easily understandable, but they just did not want to know.
DAB It reminds me of a verse in one of the other gospels: “the Lord's power was there to heal them”, Luke 5: 17. It was there but they did not get the benefit of it. What you say is true: the light was here, but they could not see it.
PFE They were wrapped up in their teaching and they were not going to move from it.
RMF There is another scripture which says that he “did not there many works of power, because of their unbelief”, Matt 13: 58. Do you think there is an element of faith needed in this?
DAB That is right. That was in the very town where He had lived, in Capernaum. That is a solemn thing. I think we should look for these works of power - I am not speaking of miracles or that sort of thing, but the power of divine life working, the work of power that comes from association with the Son of God.
RMF I am just thinking too that , if we try and sort things out among the brethren for ourselves, it often makes a matter worse. If we have faith in the Lord, He can work.
DAB All these things arise to test our faith. I remember a word being given here about the three accounts we have of the water getting into the boat. I think a lot of the young people feel like that, that there is water in the boat and that the Lord is asleep. We might ask why is nothing happening? In Matthew, the Lord says, “ye of little faith”; in Luke He says, “Where is your faith” - it is mislaid for the time being; but in Mark, he says, “how is it ye have not faith?”, Mark 4: 40. That is very severe. I think some of these questions arise, and the Lord might have to ask ‘have you no faith’; you are not acting as if you did? I remember someone speaking of prayer as that last resort when we have tried everything else. How sad that is when we know the Son of God.
London
9th April 2017
List to initials (London unless shown otherwise) :-
D H Bailey, Maidstone; D A Burr; A A Croot; P F Eagle; R M Fry; G H Hurt;
J S Hutson; F S Pittman