2 Chronicles 7: 1-3
Psalms 148, 149 & 150
Job 38: 1-7
Luke 2: 12-14
John 12: 24
Hebrews 3: 1
Ephesians 3: 20, 21
MJW Reference was made this morning to the hymn -
God manifest in flesh, O wonder of His universe!
(Hymn 400)
It is because of that wonderful movement which our hymn describes that God will see to it that every created thing - and certainly every man - will acknowledge the greatness of Jesus. It is because of the wonder of what happened in the Word coming to make God known, and coming into conditions of flesh and blood in order to die. This has led me to this thought of response, of which there was a great deal this morning. I selected these scriptures because they are some of the high points in God’s activities, beginning with the creation when He founded the earth and had the response: “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy”. Is that not a beautiful reference; God had those who were sympathetic with what He did? What it must have meant to His heart when He thought of all that He was going to achieve in the creation! It has been said that the creation is the sphere of God’s purpose. So we need to include in our thoughts the greatness of what creation involves. It obviously involves the heavens and the earth; and those are the areas where God has operated and where He will get His response. Heaven and earth will be in unison as a result of the wonderful things that He has done. So we could perhaps start off with the creation, and what caused these morning stars to respond in the way they did.
DC We were reading in Luke 1 last week and what we get there when Zacharias comes in, “of the course of Abia”, v 5. There is a connection with 1 Chronicles where you get the fulness of lsrael’s response, but there is a link back to that here. Exodus 15 is the beginning of Israel‘s response - because it is response. You have the song of Moses, but it is the song of Miriam here. It is a response to that song of Moses.
MJW That is exactly what I had in mind. We have the creation; and then the response flowing to God; and then we have the people that are delivered from Egypt and the response then from the subjective side (I did not read what Moses said). Then we have the high point in Israel with the house filled and the priests not able to stand. That response must have been very wonderful. David established the service of song, but Solomon was privileged to complete the house and all the glory that attached to that. Then we have the incoming of the Lord Jesus - what a wonderful moment - and this heavenly host fully in accord with it! How thrilling it is!
I read about the lonely “grain of wheat” because everything that God has done has depended on redemption. How touching it is that the Lord should use that expression, particularly when the Greeks came: “Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone; but if it die, it bears much fruit”.
I read in Hebrews because we have often been shown that in Hebrews we have the Apostle, who comes out from God, and we have the High Priest, involving what goes back to God from Christ and from man. We have often been reminded that the response is equal to the revelation. Christ was the Apostle; but there is response, because of Christ in His priestly capacity having the breastplate and the shoulder-pieces, with the saints on His heart and on His shoulders. He goes in to God with the saints there, but it is because He is there, as well as the saints, that the response is equal to the revelation.
And then I read in Ephesians 3 because you get that mighty section at the end of the chapter where it is glory to God in the assembly, that unique vessel fitted peculiarly to serve God.
DC In the scripture that says, “the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy”, how far do you think they had any knowledge of the purpose of God? They could take account of creation, but could they take account of what God is going to do in Christ and then in the assembly even at those very beginnings?
MJW When God starts to work in the creation, He makes the expanse. It is an index to His thoughts and the extensiveness of them. I like the thought that the creation had in view the whole extent of the thoughts of God involving His pleasure and His purpose. Did they know His heart, and what would flow out of it? The morning stars “sang“, but the sons of God “shouted“. Ours is a much greater privilege because we can sing as knowing something about redemption. And we love singing, do we not?
WMP So immediately in Genesis 1 He brings in the thought of the “great lights“, v 16. That would link with our brother’s suggestion for us this morning, the supreme place that Christ has. God does not wait to introduce that thought, does He?
MJW That is beautiful, and all the result of the sun shining. We know that photosynthesis happens because the sun shines; and if the glory of Christ shines, it operates mightily, does it not?
WMP Psalm 19 says, “and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof”, v 6.
MJW It is “heat” there. Why is it “heat“?
WMP Well, it would be beneficial for us, do you think? It is connected with the thought of blessing, and maybe fruitfulness too, leading to what is responsive.
MJW I am sure that is true, but it has often surprised me because in the east the sun is very powerful and they do hide from it; so I have often wondered about that scripture. I am not trying to contradict what you are saying because the great light - lovely, is it not? - is for fructifying power, inspiring power, all that will come to light for God. But do you have any more thoughts about the heat?
WMP I was thinking of our brother’s thanksgiving this morning in suggesting how creation is introduced as a platform for God to develop these wonderful thoughts in His purpose. Maybe he has more in mind about that.
JAS I enjoyed taking part this morning. It is a wonderful thing to have part in this response. These sons of God must have had feelings as to what God was now putting in motion, shall we say? I think there was something there that they knew of them. They realised something of the heart of God that was beginning to operate with a view to securing a full answer for Himself.
MJW Well, that is beautiful, to trace it to the heart of God; because I suppose the more that is known of God, the more can be understood about the scope and blessedness of what would flow from that heart, those ‘deep affections‘, as one of our brothers referred to this morning. I enjoyed what you said because at the end of the meeting we had a number of references to ‘universal adoration‘. There is a universal response. That is why I read the Psalm because you get that sense there. I know it is limited there because it is Israel, but it has in mind that all these creatures, and all these instruments, all join in; and it gives me an impression of the whole creation joining in this response to God. It is a wonderfully exultant note, is it not? I think it is the closest I can get to thinking of the ascription of universal response.
JAS From the very beginnings of God’s workings, right through to the eternal day, what an accumulation there will be of the knowledge of Himself and of His ways. It really touches our hearts; it goes beyond our minds.
MJW I liked what you said that they knew something about God’s heart, but what has come from it!
DMC So what we touched this morning was not local; it was universal.
MJW Very good. I am sure that is important. When do you feel that we started touching that, because the breaking of bread is in the wilderness, is it not?
DMC I think the Lord Jesus takes up His place as the Minister of the sanctuary, and touches a chord in our hearts which leads a response in the power of the Spirit. And it is a wonderful thing that God is satisfied with what Christ has secured in the saints. We are just a small part of it, but, nevertheless, in a sense, we are unlimited.
MJW That is why I like the thought of the response being equal to the revelation, because it must involve Him as on the side of the response. He leads in it, and He goes in to God as representative - but not just representative - of all the people He has secured through His death. He has them all with Him. I think that is wonderful. Do you notice as the meeting goes on how you forget yourself and just join in? A wonderful change takes place, does it not, when the Lord comes in?
JB Does the thought of “all the sons of God” bring in what is universal? There is nothing partial in what is said there: “all the sons of God”.
MJW That is very interesting. “All the sons of God”: that is beautiful. It reminds me of Hebrews when the writer speaks of the things we have come to. We must not forget the angelic host because they must feel for God, and one of the things he speaks of is “the universal gathering”, Heb 12: 23. I love that. Is that “all the sons of God”? What a thought that is: “myriads of angels” - “all the sons of God shouted“.
RJC Is the intent of every divine activity to bring out a response from the hearts of His creature? God has moved from His own side towards man, but the answer now is from man towards God. I was just thinking of divine activities, as was quoted this morning: “Let my son go, that he may serve me”, Exod 4: 23. God has ever desired a response from man. Sin came in, but He has taken advantage of the very incoming of sin to bring out His own resources, to have an answer to Himself, do you think?
MJW I do. He used the very fact of sin coming in to produce in man a moral condition whereby he can know God. It is wonderful to understand that God is good and hates evil, but the coming in of sin was used to give that capacity to man. He turned it all to account. I love the thought that you suggest of God starting it all. When He went into the garden (Gen 3: 8), He was looking for fruit, was He not? He did not find any, but He is finding it now.
PRM So there came a time when “people began to call on the name of Jehovah”, Gen 4: 26. It comes in after the incoming of Enosh whose name speaks of ‘man, as weak, mortal’, see footnote. It begins from that lowly basis but through the grace of God and His love and mercy, it widens out in response to God. Man begins in weakness, I suppose, but as coming before God in our weakness, we learn His grace and His mercy and all He has provided for us which would draw out response from our hearts.
MJW That is good. So we proved something of the Father’s Spirit strengthening us inwardly, as the hymn says:
The realms of bliss to scan
(Hymn 442)
We do feel our weakness but that is a good thing. It is like the witnesses in Revelation: God set them on their feet, chap 11: 11. We need that, and maybe when young brothers take part, it is a bit of an ordeal, when there are about twenty three brothers there, and you feel your weakness, but then God can turn that to account.
DMC We have the reference in Jude as to Enoch, “Behold, the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads”, v 14. Is that really a universal idea? That is not weakness there.
MJW No, it certainly is not. What does that Psalm say? “He goeth forth and weepeth, bearing seed for scattering; he cometh again with rejoicing, bearing his sheaves”, Ps 126: 6. This is like that; He brings them to God. This is the fruit of what He has secured. It is like Joseph forgetting “all my toil, and all my father‘s house“, and there is a response in ‘double fruitfulness‘ for God, Gen 41: 51.
BWB So in Psalm 48 it is “According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise”, v 10. Do you think the progressive unfolding of the name of God into the fullest way in which we know it now is all calculated to fill out the service of praise? There is some link with John 4: 22 too: “we worship what we know”, do you think?
MJW Very good.
BWB In a right sense, you are familiar with the One you are speaking to, and do you think that promotes the outflow of spiritual liberty? And the more we know God, the better we will be able to speak to Him about His attributes and His love and His fulness and so on.
MJW Well, I say this with respect, but it is lovely to hear an older person speak to God, and see the result of years of experience in the knowledge of God and the richness that flows. I like what you say about the unfolding of the greatness of God, because the scriptures we have read show exactly what you have said, the unfolding of the names of God, and they are very wonderful. We ought to feel the privilege of the fact that God has been revealed. “We worship what we know”, and we could never know God otherwise, could we? Job had a remarkable knowledge of God from creation, but he did not know what we know.
AB Miriam sets something on here. It says, “And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took the tambour in her hand, and all the women went out after her”, as if she is setting something on. The footnote refers to the ‘dance choirs’, something that is beginning to widen out. Would that be something that we would be interested in?
MJW What Miriam did set something on, and I found that right through the meeting this morning there was that suggestion of response. I was struck with all the hymns we had at the end to the Father and to God - ‘eternity’s serene employ‘, Hymn 116. I should love to be able to highlight them, because there was a theme that ran through right from the suggestion that our brother gave in his word. That is right, I am sure. A word is very valuable, and I think often people are a little afraid to give one; but if you have an impression and you feel it is of the Lord, give it, because while you may feel feeble in giving it there may be suggestions in it that can be developed infinitely. You may feel you have not really enlarged it as you would like to.
AB That is right. I am just trying to catch your thoughts. Are you suggesting that the physical creation leads us to appreciate what God has in the new creation, which is far better?
MJW I was not, but thank you! Thank you for your thoughts.
AB God “spoke, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast”, Ps 33: 9. That is the order of creation which is of God, and it is that in which His purposes have been worked out. But God has greater things than what is physical and what is material; what is spiritual is far better.
MJW Well, that is good. I see the line of your thoughts. I think a lead taken by somebody is most important. If the Lord gives the word, then the matter needs to be expanded, however feeble you may feel in giving it out. It may not necessarily be in a word. It may be in a thanksgiving, and it often is; or it could be in a hymn.
The Spirit strikes the chord
(Hymn 142)
- the hymn says, does it not?
DJR In the Psalms that you read, everybody is brought in: “Let everything that hath breath praise Jah” (Ps 150: 6), but prior to that there are a number of different vehicles of praise.
MJW Exactly. That is what impressed me. I suppose what the psalmist brings in there is literal: so if we apply it spiritually, how rich it is. You get the expression “the abundance of the seas”, Deut 33: 19. I do not know whether every representative of creation is there in that Psalm. Will that actually take place, the sun and moon praising? They were involved in the bowing down to Joseph. What do you think about the literality of that, or do you think it is just figurative?
DC We get “The heavens declare the glory of God”, Ps 19: 1. It is not quite the same thought as this; this is a further thought. “The heavens declare”, so man can take account of it. So that man is inexcusable, because “the heavens declare the glory of God”, but this is a further thought. It is response from creation.
MJW I think it is wonderful. You get in Revelation the living creatures. Creation will have its own part in responding to God.
WMP That is the order in Revelation, that there is response in relation to creation, but chapter 5 brings in “a Lamb standing, as slain”, v 6. That brings in redemption, and how full and complete that thought is: “thou … hast redeemed to God, by thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation“, v 9. You might say there could not be anything more universal than that: “every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation“.
MJW Thank you. That is beautiful. And you have the twenty-four elders. You have the experience that is drawn from different dispensations there in activity round the throne. So you have the twenty-four elders, and you have the living creatures, and you have that little Lamb in the midst of the throne. It is a wonderful picture.
DMC We had a number of references this morning to the many families. That is a wonderful thing too, the many families, of which we are the nearest. That is a very blessed thing, is it not?
MJW It is a very blessed thing; and I love to think of some of the circumstances out of which those families will be secured. In the great tribulation, the awful time that there will be, there will be many secured. I think it speaks of a company “which no one could number” (Rev 7: 9), that come out of the great tribulation, probably as a family, that will yield for God. Will that not be a sweet touch?
DMC There is what is special for the saints of the assembly, “I go to prepare you a place”, John 14: 2. That is distinct for the assembly, is it not?
“I am coming again and shall receive you to myself”, v 3.
MJW It is beautiful: “that where I am ye also may be”. The saints are taken to where He is. We have the same thought in relation to the assembly: Isaac is not brought back to the bride; the bride is taken to Isaac, Gen 24.
DWS When the Lord comes in, He wants us to be with Him where He is. He comes to us, but not to go on with us where we are. He is gracious, but He wants us to go and move with Him into a place where He is the Centre.
MJW There was a reference this morning to the bride in the royal apartments, Ps 45:13, note. That is where we go: the royal apartments. I would love to get a richer impression of that, the place where Christ is in glory.
RJC Miriam’s response is an answer to the redemptive work of God, bringing His children out of Egypt, taking them through the Red Sea: “The horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea“, Exod 15: 21. There is an answer to that in Miriam and those with her, do you think? So every divine activity has an answer to it.
MJW Divine victory was referred to this morning.
Evil’s challenge, long permitted -
Met by Thy supremacy.
One of the most wonderful things that has ever happened is redemption, and there is a response from it, and it is immediate. But why do you speak of Miriam in the way you do?
RJC As has been said, there is a real deep appreciation of God’s activities in redemption. It is a very deep response, is it not, in the appreciation of God’s activities in bringing His people out of bondage into liberty?
It takes you right through: “Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance”, Exod 15: 17. It takes you right through to the presence of God, and the enjoyment of what there is in the divine presence for the people, do you think?
MJW That is beautiful. It links again with what was said about the sons of God getting a view of the whole expanse. I love that: “Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance”. It a whole view! Is that the view from Pisgah, Deut 34: 1?
RJC Moses saw it all.
MJW Exactly. Think of God showing him. Poor Moses did not go in then, but God showed him. I should love to have heard what He said, showing him the whole scope of the land.
RH I just wondered in connection with what has already been said about the thought of “Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron“. She knew what to do. There is a certain intelligence that marked her in what she did. She “took the tambour in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambours and with dances”. She knew how to act. Would that suggest that there should be intelligence with us in order to respond and to move in relation to the headship of Christ in the service of God?
MJW It is good to bring in what is prophetic because we often link what is prophetic with what is negative, but if a brother gives a word or says anything in his thanksgiving or in a hymn, it may be a prophetic touch; and, priestly intelligence is such a valuable thing. How God loves it! It is the result of formation, is it not? The priest in the Old Testament links with spirituality in the New.
RH Sometimes we are hardly conscious of how we are in the service of God. We are not occupied, as it were, with our own place in it, but under the headship of Christ - under His blessed touch and under the control of the Spirit, we are able to function in God’s service. Christ is the One that we make everything of, but we have this link with Him. I wondered whether the thought of “Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron” suggests that there was this close link so that all the women were able to do what she did.
MJW I think that is a very beautiful suggestion.
CE At the time of the tabernacle being constructed, it says “every one whose heart moved him”, Exod 35: 21. They had been inspired in bringing in gold, and there was so much that they had to be stopped. We experienced that this morning.
MJW I thought that. Who did the stopping? It is important what you raise because how do we end the meeting? How do we know when to end the meeting? We need, in a collective way, to be sensitive as to when the Lord goes out. It is not up to one brother to close it.
CE We have to do with heavenly things. We are dealing with real things, and the Spirit would help us to close as well as to open. Someone has said that it does require us to be sensitive spiritually to detect when to close, and there are times when we have failed, but I would say generally we do know when to close. This morning was superlative and we kept going and it was something that was real in our hearts, something that we all enjoyed.
MJW Absolutely, and what I was interested to notice was that Mr Darby obviously observed that, in response to God, there are high points, and then as it were low points, and then high points again. If you look at the hymn, The Endless Song, you get a spiritual sense there of a point of power, and then perhaps a lull, but then another point of power; and I noticed that this morning. You might have thought the meeting had ended, but if there is more power, it continues and it continues in power, and then you can say that the Lord has left, that is what we look for, whether He has left.
BWB According to the word to Philadelphia, there will come a time when we “shall go no more at all out”, Rev 3: 12. Do you think we should in a sense make way for that? As you say, it is not for us to close the meeting. There will come a time when it will not close. That should not be out of our minds, or out of our hearts, but I think if you are restful, the Lord gives a fairly clear indication that the summit has been reached, and perhaps we have not enough strength for any more.
MJW Well, that is very, very helpful.
WMP Where you read in Chronicles, “the priests could not enter”; so what is official is not in view at all, is it? It is really a spiritual experience. In order to have a spiritual experience, what do we require?
MJW Well, we need the Spirit: and “that which is born of the Spirit" which "is spirit”, John 3: 6. Is that not important in anyone that takes part, that new birth has taken place, and, more than that, they are born of God? “That which is born of the Spirit is spirit”: it is like God, spirit. “God is a spirit“, John 4: 24.
DMC Do you think the hymns generally carry the saints? It is like the waves of the ocean. We often find here locally that our meetings end with a lot of hymns and we find that that is a very rich response.
MJW You are very good singers too. Music is a vehicle; it is a form of transport. The spiritual sphere is so wonderful. Spiritual things are real. There is a difference between what we experience and what we anticipate - it will be actual when we are there.
AB As to what we were saying about Miriam, she is setting something on. I was thinking about the service of song and how important it is. Linking with what our brother said about waves, the Lord Jesus in Hebrews 2 is referred to as saying, “in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises. And again, I will trust in him”, v 12, 13.
MJW “And again, Behold, I and the children which God has given me”.
AB It is as much as to say that there is another wave. Would that be fair?
MJW Excellent.
IEP I was just wondering whether finally there will be a response in relation to every detail of what God has done. We had the sense of variety in the response, and we respond in relation to what we know. I was thinking that God really does everything in view of response and praise and glory to Himself. So He will not have done anything that will not finally have a response from someone in that great song that will continue through eternity, do you think?
MJW I do. Do you not think the judgment seat of Christ will make us realise this, as the hymn says:
With Him look back on all the way;
To learn the meaning, at His hand,
Of every deed in every day!
Think of that!
Clearer than ever shall we see
The grace which God our Saviour showed
(Hymn 299)
Do you not think that all the things that God has done, and the detail of it in our lives, will be clear to us then? How much richer will the praise be then, do you think? I am sure you have more in your mind as to that, but I often think of that as being “then I shall know according as I also have been known”, 1 Cor 13: 12.
IEP I was not even just limiting it as to what might be subjective, but also the great objective things that God has set before us. We were speaking about the creation; the great detail of that, which mankind does not know and so cannot give God glory for. Perhaps these sons of God understood the creation better than we do; but whenever it comes to the spiritual realm, the Spirit will unveil and make these things all known, so that everything will result in response to God, do you think?
MJW I do. Do you think that is how the eternal day will be filled out?
IEP It will be always fresh, will it not?
MJW Wonderful!
Perpetual freshness marks th’ eternal day,
Abiding peace, joy ne’er to fade away
(Hymn 173)
WC In these Psalms which you have read almost every verse is “Praise”, or “Let them praise”. Do you think that, in the eternal day, while there will be something from the assembly which is formed, some of these praises which come into this Psalm will come from other families? I was just thinking from what we enjoyed this morning as to what there will be in the assembly eternally, in the eternal response, but there will be these other families, do you think, which will praise?
MJW I think that is right. I think the assembly is a vessel that has been formed by the Lord Jesus in order to praise. You cannot think of a more fruitful, blessed Man than Him, can you? The vessel that He has formed and He has built will take character from Him. You might say the potential in the assembly through the Spirit’s indwelling is immense. It is not infinite, but it is immense, and eternity will be filled, will it not?
DC In connection with what our brother has been saying about the response being equal to the revelation, do you think we get some touch of that from what you read in Luke: “Glory to God in the highest”? So we have earlier revelations of God; you have Almighty God; and you have Jehovah; but as soon as we come into the fringes of this dispensation, when there is a heavenly Man brought into view, it is “Glory to God in the highest”, do you think?
MJW Well, that is why I think the remark that was made about the creation being the area for working out the purpose of God is so important because, while there is what is above what is created which the Lord has entered, there are the created heavens. We do not know much about them, but I think there is glory to God there. Stephen looked into heaven and he saw a Man there; Jerusalem was no longer the centre, now heaven was the centre, and a Man in it. Wonderful! “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good pleasure in men”.
DC Do you think the response is connected with progressive relationship as well; so you have Almighty God, you have Jehovah, the covenant names; but in this dispensation there is sonship so there is a greater response from that. When you come to Revelation, it is tabernacling with men, chap 21: 3. It is an intimate relationship for men. There will be a response involved in that, do you think?
We have been taught that sonship is the nearest relationship, but the tabernacle is a close idea and God tabernacling with men is His final thought.
MJW That is beautiful. It is like John 1: 14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (see note ‘c’ - lit, ‘tabernacled’). Think of the thirty three and a half years of Jesus being here. There was no hurry. It was wonderful, and that gives a clue, does it, to the closeness and the intimacy of that wonderful day when God can get so close, and even wipe tears away? Wonderful!
DWS Does it suggest perfect harmony between God and His creature?
MJW It is good to the musical ear that there is harmony, and harmony is of God, is it not? I think it reflects the Creator. He has created harmony, and He is going to have it in His universe. Heaven and earth will no longer be alienated. That is another interesting thing. In Psalm 19 that you referred to, it says, “Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge”, v 2. That is response. It is almost as though they say, ‘Have you heard about this?’ and ‘Have you heard about this?’ There are fresh glories opening up.
DMC The sisters add to the harmony and to the response that is going out in the service of praise.
MJW What an essential part they fill.
DMC The singing would be the poorer without the sisters.
MJW I am sure the fact their voices are unbroken, whereas men’s voices are broken, is all part of God’s creatorial skill to get a range of sound.
DC There is more to it than just the sisters’ voices. They very much are a part of and support what the brothers are able to give voice to, and they carry in their thoughts and their hearts what the brothers give voice to, would you say?
MJW Absolutely. Who are the ones that stood by the cross? Who are the ones that followed the Lord? They were the women, were they not? It shows the quality of what is in a woman. Although it may be silent in the assembly, it is there and it is essential.
RH Really the sisters rely upon the brothers to function, do they not? I just thought how necessary it is that we keep sight of Christ. Would it be the secret of buoyancy in God’s service that we keep sight of Christ?
MJW That is very fine.
RH Otherwise there would be many troughs.
MJW There was nothing wrong with the lulls I mentioned, because in that hymn of Mr Darby’s there seems to be a wave of power.
RH It is just that we cannot go anywhere without Him.
MJW No we cannot. You look at the sea from your window and you see the waves and the troughs, and you enjoy both, seaman that you are.
JB You referred to harmony in 2 Chronicles, “when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one voice to be heard … then the house … was filled”, chap 5: 13.
MJW Exactly. Did God not enjoy that? “As one”: it was like that this morning, was it not?
Warrenpoint
1st May 2010