1 Kings 10: 1-9
Philippians 3: 1-21
Ephesians 4: 8-16
RDP We have been thinking in these meetings about the matter of completion. What is in mind now is expressed in this last chapter. It has been referred to several times already: “until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”. This is not looking at what will be true eternally - there will be no shortfall there - but at something relating to the time in which we are. We may find difficulty getting our mind around that, but I believe it to be the truth, and I believe it to be what God has before Him, and what the divine system involves that there will be this. Paul could say, writing on another subject, “For for me to live is Christ, and to die gain”, Phil 1: 21. What a thing that is; and I believe the divine end is that God would have Christ everything to us. In every way that we know Him, He would have Him enhanced in our view. In the divine system that God has for His pleasure, everything is Christ; wherever you look you will see Christ, and it is in view that we arrive in increasing measure at that, beloved brethren. We may get some help on these scriptures.
I read of the queen of Sheba because she seems to represent a person who had light but she is not content with light; and she takes this journey to see for herself and she said, “It was a true report that I heard”. We are thankful for the true report, and for all that has come to us, by way of ministry, and by way of scriptures. When you come to the highest level books in the Bible, books like Ephesians and Colossians and Philippians, you find that there is a point beyond which ministry cannot go; and in all of these writings you will find that Paul speaks about his prayers. It is as if he recognises that ministry can only go so far. The final opening up of the glory of things can only be known by persons who enter into it by the Spirit. The thought that we had earlier as to the Spirit of truth helps as to that. Paul at Ephesus says, “I bow my knees to the Father... that he may give you”, chap 3: 14, 16. First of all he asks, in the first of his two prayers in Ephesians, that the saints might have, “the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him” (chap 1: 17); and in the second one he bows his knees that the saints may come into it. It is as if he would recognise that there was nothing more he could say; ministry could do no more; and it involved what was acting and effective by the Spirit, in the saints, to discover the fulness of “the breadth and length and depth and height”, chap 3: 18. I do not think any ministry can explain that to you; I think that is something that is to be known by the Spirit. Now I think the queen of Sheba here represents a believer. She is someone who has light, and she moves in relation to Solomon. She moves to see his glory and we know the detail of what she finds, but she says, “the half was not told me”. I think we need to see that the half is only told when you come and you see. She expounds upon what she sees in Solomon’s palace. She saw, “Solomon’s wisdom, and the house that he had built, and the food of his table, and the deportment of his servants, and the order of service of his attendants”. She says, “It was a true report that I heard”. I think we should be thankful for the report. We should be thankful for what has come to us by way of report, but recognise that as we come to the fulness of things, it is going to involve more than ministry, it is going to involve more than report, it is going to involve our own experiences in relation to the Spirit of God, that the greatness of Christ may come into view.
We know the other two scriptures well. In Philippians it is not a question of doctrine, as we do not get much by way of doctrine in Philippians; it is the work of God, in a person, in expression. Paul is not writing as the apostle in this chapter; he is writing as a believer, he is writing about his own experiences, about his outlook; he is writing about his desires; and he speaks of his stretching out, “that I may gain Christ; and that I may be found in him”. You get some impression of what Christ meant to Paul, beloved brethren, and we could look at that. Then in Ephesians there is this wonderful chapter as to the Lord Jesus ascended and His activity in relation to what was down here and the gifts given, “with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man”. It does not say until we are all brought there; that would be objective: we know that we shall all come, finally, into the fulness of the purpose of God. We shall know that, but it is not here until we are brought to this; it is until we arrive at it, and this unique chapter brings that before the saints.
WSC The queen of Sheba had apparently some questions, it calls them enigmas, but then it later says she spoke to Solomon, “and she came to Solomon, and spoke to him of all that was in her heart. And Solomon explained to her all she spoke of”. Does it involve that we are not exactly questioning? We are seeking Solomon, we are seeking the Lord.
RDP Yes, I think so. Enigmas are often used as a defence mechanism, and I think when she comes to Solomon that all fades away and she does not speak any more of the enigmas: she speaks of all that was in her heart. That is a wonderful thing, as coming to Christ. You do not need defence mechanisms, you do not need the guarded questions and the two part questions that we so often ask; you do not need that when you come to Christ. As she gets to him it all fades away, and she spoke to him of all that was in her heart.
DMW It would be like contemplation of what Solomon had and him being exalted. It is like Christ and what He has here. You have to go in for that, and therefore you can express your own heart by going in for it.
RDP I think that is right. We have questions, and sometimes enigmas, but I think when we come to Christ we find that all these things will fade away and our hearts are revealed to Him. The glory of Christ, seen here in type, is not exactly what we find as coming to Christ as the Saviour; this is coming to Christ in His glory. I have been struck by a thought that what has come out in the worst of man is met by the death of Christ, but what has come out in the best of man is met by the glory of Christ. The death of Christ meets the worst, and it is the glory of Christ that removes for me what is best in man which I suppose you see in that scripture in the beginning of Philippians. It is Christ in His glory that meets that.
WSC The scripture we had in the earlier meeting, “the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming” (John 16: 13), really connects with this.
RDP I believe so, because I do not think this is future: it is now. This is “the house that he had built, and the food of his table, and the deportment of his servants, and the order of service of his attendants”. This is the divine system in glory, and everything is operating and working, and Solomon’s glory permeates it all, and you come now to one in whom is everything that is for God. It says in Ephesians, “that he might fill all things”, and everything is in Christ, everything is there in Himself.
GMC I wonder if you could open that up a bit more? I am thinking of the end of Job. He could say, “I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear, but now mine eye seeth thee”, Job 42: 5. The result was that he abhorred himself. The queen of Sheba comes and sees Solomon’s wisdom, and she really becomes a worshipper later.
RDP I believe so. I just have this thought (I am not sure if it answers your question) but perhaps we can come to rely too much on ministry and on gift. Ministry is what leads to what is of Christ, but you may say the final step involves what is in yourself by the Spirit of God. Gift is an enrichment. Gift is marking out in some distinction the way for us, but it is not a final thing. We do not want to come to a point where we rely on gift for everything; we need to see that the final thing is what works within, and that involves the journey, from Romans to Ephesians. She takes the journey and she is ready for it. If the young people look on the map and see where she came from it was an amazing journey in those days. I think Sheba is somewhere in the north of an Ethiopian empire and you can look at the journey and what it must have been. She covered that long distance and the dangers involved in the travel of that day but she was ready to take the journey. I wonder if we are ready to take the journey or whether we will only rely upon the report, good as that is. She says, when she comes, “the half was not told me”.
RNH Matthew speaks about, “Ask” and, “Seek” and, “Knock”, Matt 7: 7. These are verbs that involve the arriving; it is activity, allowing the Spirit to have His place with us in relation to movement, as the queen of Sheba shows here.
RDP Yes, I believe so; she came with her train and camels and brought gifts. She was a very rich monarch at that time but it all recedes as she is affected by the glory of Solomon, as we would say, by the glory of Christ. It is very important that we become affected by the glory of Christ. There are two lessons that the Lord gives in the New Testament which were given to Israel, that is, the sign of Jonas, and the glory of Solomon. He speaks about those two things: “more than Solomon is here” (Luke 11: 31), and, “more than Jonas is here”, Luke 11: 31, 32. Jonas speaks about the Lord going into death and Solomon refers to the Lord in glory. Those two lessons are left in Scripture, and Solomon shows that we need this experience of coming to Christ in glory.
WMcK What do you think about the spiritual things she says in verse 9, “Blessed be Jehovah thy God, who delighted in thee”? It is remarkable that she got that shaft of light into her mind as she looked at all this; it leads her to attribute it all to God, and typically His affection for Christ His Son?
RDP Yes, I am glad you refer to that because we sometimes sing,
That glory all belongs to God
(Hymn 88).
She seems to recognise that: “Blessed be Jehovah thy God, who delighted in thee”. She gets some impression not only of Solomon’s glory, but she gets the impressions of God who delighted in him.
WMcK And then whatever her own regime may have been, she goes on to say, “Because Jehovah loves Israel for ever, therefore did he make thee king”. We could say that, because God loves the assembly, He has given us Christ as Head.
RDP Yes, what wonderful, rich thoughts these are that come out. It is almost as if she had to go to find this out; she had to see, and she had to be there: “the half was not told me”, she says, “in wisdom and prosperity thou exceedest the report that I heard. Happy are thy men! happy are these thy servants, who stand continually before thee, who hear thy wisdom!”. We are only looking at an illustration but it gives some idea of the believer being prepared to take the journey that we have been speaking about and moving from a moribund state, a static state even of Christian belief, into the fulness of divine thoughts and into this area of the glory of Christ. We all appreciate the work of Christ as our Saviour; we appreciate the blessedness of what He has done, we appreciate the blessedness of where He is, but beloved brethren let us not stop, let us go on until we become opened up in our hearts and in our lives to the greatness of the glory of Christ, because that is what the Spirit has in mind at the present time.
WSC In the end, Solomon gave her everything she asked, and then he gave her of his bounty besides that.
RDP Yes, go on; what do you see in that?
WSC I was just thinking how as we come into this appreciation of Christ we even get more.
RDP Yes, that is good. So are we ready to take the journey, beloved brethren? Is our Christianity to just be a static affair? If it is, sadly we become vulnerable to the enemy. We become vulnerable to the enemy if we settle like Jacob did on his way back. He was coming back after getting that touch of recovery, coming back to Bethel, and yet inexplicably he stops at a place called Succoth, and he built himself a house there, Gen 33: 17. He stops short of the full thoughts of God and he builds a house there, and the next thing you know, a whole disaster starts to open up, as to his family, as to his daughter: the brethren can read it. You know it has been said that if we become contented with having started right and not exercised about making further advancement in the truth, we may become ‘spiritually petrified’, JBS vol 11 p291. Then danger is lurking as you see in those epistles I quoted, danger that could see us carried away, so far as the testimony is concerned.
MN The sign of that would be Laodicea, lukewarm: it says, “grown rich, and have need of nothing” (Rev 3: 17); but, whatever we have, the queen of Sheba did not consider her wealth, she moved in accordance to what you are saying, moved into a sphere of glory where Solomon was. That is how we should be moving; would that be it?
RDP Yes, I think so, and moving is the word. If you are in a boat, you cannot steer it unless the boat is moving, it just drifts all over the place wherever the wind and tide go. As soon as you begin to move it has steerage way; you can steer a course. So it is with the believer and his life. If we become static and moribund in our Christian life and settle down into a kind of ‘comfort zone’ we shall find that we will not be able to steer and we will be subject to the tides and the drifts and the winds of the day. It is like what Paul says in Ephesians, “tossed and carried about by every wind of that teaching”.
NJP We were reminded recently in Toronto how we are to have a parapet, Deut 22: 8. There is a balustrade later on in verse 12, which refers to the Spirit’s work to support us in the ascent to Jehovah.
RDP That is good. I certainly think it is something to be known, something to be proved, what the blessedness of the divine presence is. This is another world; what Christ has at the present time, and what we will have soon in fullness, and there is another wisdom, which has nothing to do with the wisdom of men, and these things are open and available to us in the Spirit, “the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”.
We might now turn to Philippians which is perhaps more familiar to the brethren. This is not so much a doctrinal book; it speaks about the work of God in believers, and particularly in Paul here, the writer. Paul could not write to Corinth in relation to the work that was in them, but he had to write objectively. He had to write to them as they were in Christ. There was so little he could say as to God’s work in manifestation amongst them that he had to address them as they were in purpose, but when you come to the second epistle to Corinthians, in some measure he is able to address them according to the work of God in them. Paul the believer is setting out his exercises here, setting out where he had come from. Saul of Tarsus represented the best that man naturally could be, and he speaks of the way that all of it was eclipsed by the glory of Christ, the fulness of Christ. What a thing it would be, beloved brethren, if that was so with any one of us. His exercise here, “I pursue, looking towards the goal, for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus”, sets out Paul the believer and his exercises, and you wonder whether you have begun when you read the exercises of Paul in this chapter.
AM Can you say something about the expression, “that I may gain Christ”?
RDP What do you think it means, please?
AM Well in a sense every believer has gained Christ, but is this the way Paul would count that whatever else he had lost he had gained Christ? There was nothing else that compared with that.
RDP Yes, I think that is good; you mean that whatever it was, and in whichever way it was, he was gaining Christ; he was gaining an appreciation of Him. He had Christ; in the purpose of God he had Him, but to gain Him in experience and to gain fresh appreciations of Him was his object in life; and everything that he was and everything that he did was directed in that way and he counted everything else as loss. This was a man of ability; this was a man who in this world would have been a star, he would have been on the fast track; he was one going to the top of the organisation very quickly, he was brought up at the feet of Gamaliel, he was educated in the languages, but all of it he says, “I counted, on account of Christ, loss”, and then he says, “I count also all things to be loss”. That was today; it was a fresh counting; and he says, “that I may gain Christ”. Beloved brethren, what a thing it is if Christ were growing in us, we were gaining Christ, little by little, part by part, step by step, experience by experience; if we were gaining Christ, and this displaced something else in me. If we are to gain Christ, something else must go.
RBH Does that correspond with the queen of Sheba, “there was no more spirit in her”?
RDP I think that is right; please go on.
RBH She gets to the point where she had brought her enigmas, where she came to see, but she had these doubts. The doubts were all gone now, so in the sense that everything else fades and becomes unimportant. It is so for everything in the Spirit: there is no more need to question the glory that cannot be surpassed.
RDP Yes, there is no more need or desire to do so; she became wholly absorbed with the glory of Solomon. There was no question of comparing what she had known with that; there was no comparison because he had exceeded the report and in everything, it was the fulness of what she could ever know.
HJG The first epistle to the Corinthians speaks of the Lord’s commandment (chap 14: 37); but in the second epistle we get, “For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen”, chap 1: 20. There is liberty there; he is bringing before them the need to find everything in Christ. It is quite interesting that you get that thought of the promises in Corinthians.
RDP Yes. In the first epistle he has to address them on the ground of purpose, it is abstract, what he has to say about them: “ye come short in no gift” (1 Cor 1: 7), for instance; but in the second epistle things had begun to work with them and there was some evidence of the work of God there, and it is generously addressed.
JAO Is it important that Paul says here, “seeing that also I have been taken possession of by Christ Jesus”? It is very important that that is where things work out from. The Lord says about Paul that, “this man is an elect vessel to me”, Acts 9: 15. The Lord took up Paul but Paul is not settling for that; he is wanting to get possession. He says, “if also I may get possession of it”. It is a very wonderful thing, is it not?
RDP That is good. So you mean, and I think you are right, that, “I have been taken possession of by Christ Jesus”, was a fact, established in the soul: “I have been taken possession of”. You can always go back to that, you can always rest in the fulness of that, but then in his exercises he says, “but I pursue, if also I may get possession of it”. In other words, he is a bit on the line that we are speaking of that, although it was true of him - it would be eternally true that he was Christ’s possession - he was looking to take things up in the power of the Spirit, even in this condition in which we are; and God has provided the means that that can be so.
JAO There is the reality too of what it is to be taken possession of by Christ. If the Lord gets a hold of us in that way, we want to get possession of the best He has in mind for us.
RDP Yes, that is very good and helpful and I appreciate it. It is a great thing if we have the solid foundation of that in our souls, that we are His. We have been taken possession of, and He is never going to let go.
KAK I am just wondering if we get help by seeing how others move to completion. The Lord had before Him to go out of this world, and you can see that in Stephen, and perhaps Paul saw that as Stephen died. I was just thinking of going out of this world as in the sense of completion.
RDP Yes. Certainly Paul expresses it at the end of his life when he speaks about what had entered into it. He says, “For I am already being poured out, and the time of my release is come. I have combated the good combat, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith”, 2 Tim 4: 6, 7. I think what you say is good. There is something very stable and helpful and blessed about that; the fulfilment of a Christian life; the testimony of God being expressed here in this.
WMcK He says, “to know him, and the power of his resurrection”. That is not the power of the wilderness; that is power in relation to another world.
RDP That is right; go on please.
WMcK Well, I think the apostle had that before him. He wanted the actuality as verse 11 shows, as we do, but in the meantime this is the power that we want to know, the power that can take Christ out of death, and us with Him, and set us before God in righteousness, and holiness, and clothed with glory. What an experience to know such power as that while we are still here.
RDP I am sure you are right; so he says, “if any way I arrive at the resurrection from among the dead”. He could know that now; it is not the end of his life. That was now, that he might know it, the power that worked in the Christ, the exceeding greatness of His power that worked in the Christ in raising Him from among the dead. That power might be known by the saints at the present time. It is a very great concept. These are very great things that we are speaking about, and what Paul is concerned with is that he might know that for himself. Not only that he would know it in finality at the end of his life, as we get at the end of the chapter, but that he might know it now in his experience and that he might prove what there was in resurrection.
WMcK Exactly, so that, living in a realm which is based on resurrection and is the result of Christ being brought out of death by the surpassing greatness of God’s power, we are set up in relation to an eternal system of glory, of which Christ is the centre and of which God is the great ultimate object of worship.
RDP Well, that is very good. I hope these things reach into our hearts a bit. You are reaching a point where ministry cannot go further. It really involves your own experience by the Spirit, when things will start to proceed. Ministry cannot take you to the final end of your Christian experience, it can only help you along the way, but what is involved in the finality of it is the power known of the Holy Spirit of God.
WMcK Exactly; so that the real result of this is what the apostle says to the Corinthians, “I know a man in Christ”, 2 Cor 12: 2. That is a wonderful thing to reach at the present time, and it involves “to know him and the power of his resurrection”, and to know the heavenly new creation realm in which the purpose of God is fully established.
RDP I believe so. Towards the end of his life Paul says to Timothy, “I know whom I have believed”, 2 Tim 1: 12. Now all of us in this room, in greater or lesser measure, can say we know that. We do not only know it because it is written in scripture; we know the One we have believed. These things we are speaking of here are to be real in knowledge, in relation to Christ in glory, not just as ministry, as doctrine, as teaching, but experienced in the power of the Spirit.
WMcK Exactly; so Mr Darby says, ‘That is where the Spirit of God sets a Christian. It is the place of every believer. They may have great exercises of heart before getting there; but where he sets them is not in the flesh but in Christ’, JND Collected Writings, vol 16 p365. Do we believe that, do we experience what that means? It is full spiritual maturity, full growth in the heavenly realm, the new creation sphere.
RDP Yes, I believe so, so that a man like John on Patmos could say, “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”, Rev 1: 10. He entered a realm of things that was far outside his circumstances which was as real to him as anything around. He entered a realm of things that was reality to him, where he lived, where his life was, where his commonwealth was, that was above the suffering and the problems and difficulties and he enters into a sphere of privilege and, as we know, it develops into what is shown to him in the Revelation.
WMcK So we have a lovely touch here, “our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens”. You are not there alone; I am not there alone. All these beloved brethren are there: “our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens”. Well, we know there are at least three, and this extends to the full extent of the created realm, only it is new creation.
RDP Yes, and as the note to Philippians 3: 20 says, ‘’Commonwealth’ does not satisfy ... It is ‘associations of life’’. Our ‘associations of life’ are in the heavens; it is the divine system which is centred upon Christ, not marked by man’s wisdom but by God’s wisdom, where sin-soiled feet never tread. It belongs to that glorious sphere, and he says that is where we live; that is where we belong that is where our citizenship is.
WMcK That is where we are as in Christ; and we are like Christ; we have His light, we have His Spirit. We are there before God fully, according to His purpose, and nothing could exhilarate us more in view of the service we have before us tomorrow, than enjoying this tonight to some extent.
RDP As you say, it is not future; it is now. That is what is proposed here; we are entering into the realm of things in this, and in Ephesians the human mind will start to falter and say these things cannot be done, these things are not possible, but we are entering into the area of things where it says, “with God all things are possible”, Matt 19: 26.
KAO Paul could provide some help for us in verse 13, where he begins by saying, “but one thing”. Is that essential? Then he goes on to speak about “forgetting the things behind, and stretching out to the things before, I pursue”’ I wonder if we need help - I need help, I would say - about that matter, “one thing”.
RDP What do you think that “one thing” is?
KAO I link it in my mind with the Christ.
RDP Well I am sure that is right. His eyes are on the goal and “for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus”. I do not think the goal here is something future only: I think it is something that is set before us now. These things can be known now at the present time, but I like the idea of the “one thing”. It is as if other things would crowd in upon this; worries and concerns and exercises and problems and health and all these things, but he says, “one thing - forgetting the things behind, and stretching out to the things before, I pursue”.
JAO I was thinking of Psalm 27, where there is difficulty. It speaks about “When evil-doers, mine adversaries and mine enemies, came upon me” (v 2), and “If a host encamp against me” (v 3); but then in verse 4 it says, “One thing have I asked of Jehovah, that will I seek after: that I may dwell in the house of Jehovah all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of Jehovah”.
RDP Yes; that is good. There is one thing that Mary desired: to sit at the feet of Jesus. Her sister criticised her but she was sitting at the feet of Jesus, that was one thing; she concentrated on that. Nothing that was said and nothing that was suggested could deter her from it. She was fixed in that determination in relation to Him.
MN Is the “one thing” something simple? The youngest could hold on to one thing. That would carry forward into what is in a man of experience, those whom we can look up to. Paul says, “fix your eyes on those walking thus”. Would it help us with experience when we see those persons walking in relation to their commonwealth in the heavens, and that would help us practically?
RDP I think that is right. To hold to one thing is not as simple as you think, I find. To concentrate on one thing and hold to it is something, because so many other things crowd in. How many times do you set yourself to do a job, and you never actually do it because you have diverted on to something else than the “one thing”. You think of the concentration that is in relation to this, concentration in relation to Christ. Paul has got one desire, and that is Christ, and being helped by the Holy Spirit in relation to that seems to be a very great blessing.
MN We have models we can follow in other brethren too, in regard to that; would that be part of it?
RDP It speaks of that; it speaks of the model here, “fix your eyes on those walking thus as you have us for a model”. Yes, that is good.
Perhaps we should just look at Ephesians before we finish. How magnificent. It is almost as if he turned to something else in the previous chapter and now he comes back, “I Paul, prisoner of the Christ Jesus for you nations” (Eph 3: 1), and then that chapter is a parenthesis, and then he comes back, and says, “I, the prisoner in the Lord, exhort you therefore to walk worthy of the calling wherewith you have been called”, Eph 4: 1. And then he goes into this wonderful description of the ascent and descent of Christ. “Having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive”. Think of the absolute supremacy of Christ: “has given gifts to men” - the gifts are given from an ascended Christ who has led captivity captive. There is no enemy left, He has conquered them all and from such a One and such a place He has given gifts to men. It describes the gifts later. He only gives the gifts once, it seems. The gifts were given; the distribution of the gifts according to 1 Corinthians 12: 28-31 relate to the service of the Spirit, and it is quite a consideration to look at that. He gave them once from an ascended position, a glorious position; He has enriched and endowed the assembly with the gifts; and then it gives the detail as to them, “with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man”, and you say, ’How can this be?’, and yet this is the divine will. This is the purpose of God, here it is set out, that this will be so, and I think it is very affecting, beloved brethren, “until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”.
LB There are two viewpoints that would help the believer to look. It says, “He that descended is the same who has also ascended”, and I think those two views should be before us.
RDP Well, I am sure that is right. He descended in the infinite depths of His love to meet every obstacle, to meet every enemy, to remove everything that stood in the way of the full opening out of the purpose of God, I think, and He ascended and “he has led captivity captive”. It is an absolutely supreme position, but then it repeats it, “He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things”. Now, He will fill all things in a day to come and it will be seen, but at the present time He is filling the heart of the believer. The filling at the present time is in the assembly; that is where the filling is, and in a day to come it will be seen, it will be manifest that He fills all things. He ascended up on the one hand and “has led captivity captive”; that is glorious, but the second time it refers to His ascent it is “that he might fill all things”. Think of the One who is so supreme, in such a position, “that he might fill all things”; and then there is His giving and the gifts are given: “some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints”. Think of all the wealth of heaven and all the love of the Saviour’s heart, that He can give such endowment, we may say, upon the assembly.
AM Do the gifts express Himself?
RDP Yes; go on please.
AM It is a wonderful thing that He gives what He expresses Himself, in order that what is of Himself should be formed in the assembly.
RDP Right, that is good, and so the gift must contain some impression, some touch, some special touch of Christ. That is the idea of gift, and there is a certain mystery as to it, and it is all under the hand of the Spirit, I suppose, whatever the particular time in the dispensation, whatever the day in which we are. There were certain things given in the beginning, for instance, in view of the inauguration. We are not in those days now, but the distributions of the Spirit go on. I suppose we could say that all will be needed at any time in the dispensation is met by this wondrous gift of Christ.
WSC In chapter 2 it says, “that he might display in the coming ages the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus”, v 7. That is what He is aiming at.
RDP Yes, go on.
WSC Well, I think that would motivate us in our love and affection for Him and in our walk here. Everything should have that in view.
RDP I think so. It is a wondrous thing how the love of God permeates these very great scriptures. His kindness towards us and His love is manifest there, and I think we find it difficult to speak about this because this is something that is envisaged now. I think we find difficulty, beloved brethren, or I do, in grasping “the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ” and the “unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God … in order that we may be no longer babes”. The winds that come in, the “wind of that teaching which is in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning”, these winds are blowing about today. Beloved brethren, and especially beloved young brethren, there are elements operating in unprincipled cunning which are ready to carry you away and carry me away; and here you have the remedy in persons who are no longer babes, who cannot be tossed and carried about by this, because now it is not only a question of what they have read, or what they have heard, or what they have been told. It is a question of what they know, and they have known it: ”we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God”, John 6: 69.
WKC So we would be encouraged to pursue. “I pursue”, it says in that scripture we have just had. Do you think that would keep us from being tossed and carried about?
RDP Yes, I think that is right. You mean, purposeful. I believe that is important and not to be distracted from it.
WKC When Peter took His eye off the Lord he began to sink, Matt 14: 30.
RDP Yes, when he went out in the boat, but remember he did walk on the water. It was only when he took his eye off the Lord that he began to sink. You might say that he did not walk far, but he did walk, and that was something to be encouraged in.
PSA Yesterday you touched on the aspect of solid food belonging to “full-grown men”: is that important for us in relation to the current time to be feeding, in relation to the solid food?
RDP I think so; what would the solid food be?
PSA It has to be what you have referred to as Christ in glory, does it not? The glory of Christ.
RDP It is certainly Christ; I think that is the solid food for men. The babes need milk, they need that which is easily digested, and sometimes we find that we speak about spiritual things and it is easy to just switch off. It is not so easy for us to take in as natural men, but full-grown men are those who partake of solid food.
LPC Would you say that the pursuing of this prize would involve sacrifice?
RDP Yes.
LPC You think of the queen of Sheba, going to Solomon; she had a difficult journey but she came, “with a very great train, with camels that bore spices”; that would have been a sacrifice on her part, a difficult journey, the distance. So the pursuit is something a believer would go over and beyond to attain that prize. As Paul says, it was not a prize he has gained himself; he is still in the process of gaining this prize.
RDP I think that is right and the Christian way will involve sacrifice. It is a sacrificial way. . We need to see that these things do not come without a cost but they do not come without a reward either.
DMW The view here in Ephesians 4 is that we are moving together, whereas in Philippians the apostle puts an individual pronoun, “I”, primarily. The work of God in each one goes on to our commonwealth, but then we have a collective, “we”. That may have assembly circumstances in mind. There is another world in view with a basis of resurrection, that being the power to reach it, but here we are all moving together. It is collective.
RDP Yes, I think so, “until we all arrive at the unity of the faith”. The gifts are given to this end, with a view to, “the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God”, moving together; this is not individual: it is the saints as together. It is the assembly really; it is the greatness of that thought. We should perhaps just leave it there, and think about this. These things are not impossible, beloved brethren. They are not beyond us; they are here in the Scripture and the power is available from God.
Wheaton
26th November 2011